Refuting G.Edward Griffin’s Critique of Mathematically Perfected Economy


Here we will address Mr.Griffins (author of The Creature from Jekyll Island) preposterous unqualified assumptions shall we ?

Mr.Griffin : The so-called Mathematically Perfected Economy is doomed by the fact that it is based on false premises. The first one is that, when a loan is made, the money created for that loan is insufficient to cover repayment of the interest and, therefore, it will be impossible to repay the loan plus interest unless even more debt is created. Therefore – or so goes the argument – debt must always increase until the interest reaches such massive levels that the economy must collapse. That’s the premise. If it were correct, then Mr. Montagne’s solution would be reasonable. He says: “There is one and only one solution to inherent, irreversible multiplication of debt by interest; this being eradication of interest.”

REPLY : Mathematically Perfected Economy™ is not based on false premises because MPE proves with logic & elementary second grade math that the interest we all pay to local banks depletes a circulation that only ever consists of some remaining principal where the principal & interest we all pay  out of circulation is borrowed back as terminal , irreversible multiplications of debt so as to re-inflate circulation, clearly evident by increasing sums of national debt. The solution is not just an eradication of Interest , its also an obligatory schedule to retire circulation ( principal only ) at the rate of consumption or depreciation that WE CHOOSE of the related property, thus the money equal to the remaining property value , likewise equal to the remaining debt  is rightfully retired ( not stolen by a bank ) .

Mr.Griffin : The idea that interest-bearing debt must, by its nature, expand until the economy is destroyed by the debt load is a commonly accepted fallacy because, upon casual consideration, it seems logical and even mathematically correct. It is further reinforced by the observable fact that the present world is, indeed, in the process of imploding from the weight of interest obligations. It is easy to conclude that this is caused by the existence of interest itself rather than by the fact that banks are allowed to create money out of nothing, which means they collect interest on nothing. That is the real problem, but the man on the street has difficulty understanding these concepts and, thereby, becomes prey to simplistic theories.

REPLY : The MPE thesis is a provable fact, moreover anyone that merely assumes money is created out of thin air or nothing is actually admitting they don’t know how money is created, which is indeed  before the banks book / ledger entry, created then  by one of us who issues a promissory obligation when we apply & obtain an alleged loan at any local bank ( the only reason the man on the street  has difficulty understanding banks create money out of nothing much like Mr griffin is because its an out right LIE  , the man on the street much like Mr.Griffin doesn’t know  the banks DON’T create or loan money because they are allowed to give up NO consideration of their own that’s not even commensurable or equal to any falsified debt imposed on one of us?  , rather they * all local  banks * are allowed to steal the principal we create  on its very conception by misrepresenting  the  contractual obligation only then pretending to loan us money ” allegedly ” loaning us the principal only as if it was the banks principal  to loan out in the beginning, thus * all local  banks * are stealing & laundering circulation .)

Mr.Griffin : This premise of interest-caused expansion of debt can be found in countless critiques of the current monetary and banking system, but it falls apart when we realise the role played by labour in the repayment of loans. Money may be the medium of payment but it is secondary to that for which it can be exchanged, which are goods and labour. Mr. Montagne has built his premise on the value of goods but has ignored the value of labour.

REPLY : Mr Montagne has Absolutely not ignored the value of labour because all money represents our labour & production , to merely claim MPE doesn’t account for labour is to admit one doesn’t know what money is, how its created, & what it represents, its preposterous to even entertain the idea our labour merely publishes any sum of Interest into circulation .

Mr.Griffin : All of this was explained in my book, The Creature from Jekyll Island, but here is a condensed version: Debtors can earn money to pay interest even though it is the same money that was created for the principle of the loan. That may sound impossible, but here is how it works: Let’s assume that Mrs. Smith borrows $10,000 from a bank and promises to pay back $1,100 per month for ten months. That would require total repayment of $11,000 including 10% interest. Let’s also assume that there is no other money in existence anywhere in the world except for this transaction, which means there is not enough money to repay the loan plus interest — if it were required immediately. However, since loans are paid off over time and since labour also is expended over time, it is possible for Mrs. Smith to repay both the principle and interest with no extra money being created so long as she does so, bit by bit, over the period of the loan.

REPLY :  This is absolutely preposterous folks, no money ever comes into existence unless one of us signs & issues a promissory note / obligation first ,so how can the bank pay Mrs Smith the Interest in wages so she can pay them ? no one can earn the interest through the principal that was only ever issued into circulation?, even Mr.Griffin Admits himself it is the same money that was created for the principle of the loan , its mathematically impossible to pay principal + Interest, unless of course someone else defaults on their loan through no fault of their own, where the interest we all pay to all banks perpetually depletes a general circulation that only ever consists of some remaining principal at the very most? , principal is only ever issued into circulation upon an alleged loan from a bank as Mr.Griffin admits, clearly any child with a bag marbles would put Mr.Griffin to shame here .

Mr.Griffin : All she has to do is agree to work for the bank scrubbing floors once a month for $100 per scrub. When she takes out the loan, she receives $10,000 and starts her scrubbing job at the same time. At the first of the following month, she gives the bank her first payment of $1,100, and the bank gives $100 of that back to her for her work. There still is only $10,000 in existence, but Mrs. Smith now owes only $9,000 in principle plus $900 in interest, and the bank has $1000. The imbalance between amount owed and amount in existence has been reduced by $100. The same thing happens at the beginning of the next nine months until, finally, the bank has its $10,000 back, and Mrs. Smith has, indeed, paid back more than she borrowed. She paid her interest with labour, and that did not require the creation of new money.

REPLY :  To merely assume that Mrs Smith is working for the bank here is to also merely assume every one of us who is  paying a alleged debt to a bank is likewise working for the bank cleaning floors, which  is absolutely absurd reasoning & illogical by Mr, Griffin ? Moreover in realistic terms what one pays to a bank over a lifetime in a alleged  home loan is often 2X or 3X the principal in compound  interest ? , Principal I might add that was only ever issued into circulation upon the sale resulting from a falsified debt imposed on one of us , thus the amount allegedly owed by Mrs Smith $10,000 and amount in existence $10,000 has been reduced, or stolen rather, by $10,000 over the life time of that alleged  loan, & that’s not even including the interest further stolen, which is 2X or 3X the principal  that only ever exists as a irreversible multiplication of national debt, where the very same Principal & Interest payed out of a general circulation today that only ever consists of principal is making it impossible for someone else to pay just the principal alone,  consequently then the principal & interest we all pay out of circulation to a bank on all our very own falsified debts is borrowed back as a terminal  multiplication of debt  by a criminal government (who works for the banks NOT Mrs Smith or us mind you ),  & likewise this money is spent back into circulation so as to re-inflate circulation, so its physically possible for Mrs Smith to pay her Interest, however on mass these cycles of consolidation will guarantee the banks total  dispossession of all our property & wealth public & private in the end , simply because the banks are purposefully shorting the monetary circulation by charged Interest , not only that, they steal the principal also only as if it was their principal to loan out in the beginning ?

Assuming our time or work magically creates interest as increased value above the sum value of any preexisting principal is preposterous to say the least.

Logically you can only get increased value upon further production as *increasing volumes* of principal regardless. Earned profit therefore is * increased value* upon further production, which IS an * increasing sum / volume of principal * , however unearned profit or the unwarranted  interest banks impose on what are clearly falsified debts  is a * perpetual decrease in volume * below the value of its intended representation or below the * sum / volume * of remaining principal .

Because of the inherent volumetric impropriety caused by the very interest we the people pay out of circulation on our falsified debts its therefore a LIE to assume that an increasing volume of circulation exists above the cost of goods & services today & its likewise a LIE to assume a concequentual multiplication of artificial debt ( perpetual re-inflation)  is the very cause of price inflation in any remaining volume of circulation subject to interest, therefore logic alone can only tell us the very cause of price inflation  since the very conception of banking  is caused by the banks second crime of unwarranted interest imposed on a falsified debt that indeed all industry & commerce pays to a bank which is logically then an added cost passed onto the consumer in the price of goods & services on top of any resulting sales taxes /extortion to merely service an artificial debt ( federal debt ) that’s mathematically impossible to pay down so long as we are paying any sum of interest on our personal but falsified debt, concluding then price inflation is almost entirely artificial which is a further theft contrary to the LIE taught in all economic schools & universities that merely assumes without any proof or qualification that increasing prices means increasing value , NOT SO LONG AS THAT VALUE IS STOLEN X2 ON OUR VERY OWN PERSONAL BUT FALSIFIED DEBTS TO ALL THE LOCAL BANKS.   

Money is MOST CERTAINLY NOT created out of thin air & its a LIE to suggest it is  , however  what we the people create & give value with our hard earned blood sweat & tears ( labour & production we give up to each other )  is perpetually stolen & laundered out of circulation on all our very own personal but falsified debts , only to have it borrowed back again & again as an irreversible multiplication of artificial debt, or federal & state debt, which perpetually re-inflates circulation again & again so its physically possible for at least some of us to actually service the former sum of artificial debt that’s indeed mathematically impossible to pay down here,  resulting then in a perpetually increasing volume of people who are being dispossessed of all their property & wealth through no real fault of their own only so a perpetually  decreasing volume of people can physically pay their falsified debts, where by an already evidential mathematical certainty we all, YES ALL OF US including millionaires & billionaires, one by one, will lose all our property & wealth in the end  regardless.

Mr.Griffin : The same process takes place when we broaden our view to include all banks, all borrowers, and all workers. The money may move from one to the other in zigzag fashion until it finally gets back to the banks that originated the loans but, in the end, all ledgers are balanced in exactly the same manner as with Mrs. Smith.

REPLY :  No one is borrowing or loaning any money because the bank gives up no consideration of their own commensurable to any alleged debt to one of us  , the money that zig zags is how the banks launder the money out of circulation via interbank lending , the only way that money can possibly get back to the same bank is if its borrowed back as a terminal multiplication of  national debt by governments, likewise spending this stolen money back into circulation on unnecessary projects, or bailing out banks with the money we originally created .

Mr.Griffin : Mr. Montagne has based his monetary utopia on the premise that interest is the problem. Nothing could be more wrong than this. Interest is the free-market mechanism that motivates people to voluntarily place financial resources into investments that are necessary for the growth of the economy. Without interest, no one would put their saved money at risk in a new venture. The only way anything would be built or expanded would be if all enterprises were run by the state, and funding could be extracted from citizens through taxation. Montagne does not come right out and advocate this, but that is the only way a no-interest system could work. It is exactly what Hitler and Stalin had in mind.

REPLY : Interest paid on investments or unearned profit / greed may motivate people to invest today however what Interest is paid into circulation on investments & banking employees wages is only a fraction of what unearned profit  is paid / stolen out of circulation to the banks by charged interest on all our very own falsified debt, where this volumetric impropriety  will never ever negate any sustainability in growth to any economy while the rate of circulatory deflation or a expediential theft of vital circulation is perpetually depleting at a greater rate than any former rate of  re-inflation by  a multiplication of irreversible debt clearly evident by increasing sums of national debt caused by the very interest we all pay on our own falsified debts to all the local  banks . Moreover the only taxation in a mathematically perfected economy™ is in the cost in what we pay to use public infrastructure where we pay down ( not back )  the principal  that builds public infrastructure at the rate we consume or use that public infrastructure , there is no national debt in MPE because  government representatives who work for the people ( not banks ) create the money on the peoples behalf which is subject to the peoples recommendation & consequent affirmation first that actually allows them to build public infrastructure on our behalf, free of terminal  exploitation, so naturally then its we the people who likewise pay the principal down from circulation at the rate of our consumption, or use of public infrastructure to be rightfully retired ,which is absolutely  no ones to keep much the same as we pay down circulation ( principal  only ) on our very own * private * obligations at the rate of consumption  to be also rightfully retired , Moreover to compare MPE to a hitlerian of stalinist system only proves MR. Griffin is purposefully pointing people away from MPE with out right LIES. .

Mr.Griffin : Since Montagne fails’ to reckon with the monetary value of labour, he applies his mathematical formulas to the value of hard assets only. Instead of letting the free market determine the relative value of things, he believes it is the role of some group of administrators (presumably politicians and government bureaucrats) to appraise the value of every asset, control the money supply to keep pace with that appraisal, and devise depreciation schedules for them so no one will receive more out of an exchange than the other party. And he says that all exchanges should be based on a “equal measure” of work, which means either that that no one’s work should be more highly valued than anyone else’s or that everyone’s work must be evaluated by the administrators to make sure that it is properly measured in value. Here is how he phrases it:

“There is one and one only solution to inflation and deflation; this being maintenance of a circulation [money supply] which is at all times equal to the remaining value of the very assets for which the circulation was issued. A schedule of payment equivalent to the rate of depreciation or consumption is key then not only to implementation of mathematically perfected economy™, but to the very economic justice of receiving for an equal measure of our own work, the equivalent work of others.”

REPLY : This comment by Mr. Griffin is totally unfounded & a complete LIE , MPE indeed does recognise our labour in the 1.1.1 ratio formula or the obligatory schedule because logic tells us alone if we build anything the cost of labour is included in the sale price. Now MPE has a Common Monetary Infrastructure ( CMI) , which will be a NON profit accounting system nothing more , Although the (CMI) will be run by government it most definitely  won’t be subject to any banking exploitation or any administrative government regulation outlined in the United Peoples Mandate , to do so also outlined in the mandate would be an act of treason . There is no unearned profit in MPE unless you choose to give your money or earned profit /savings away , we give up & receive an equal representation of wealth to each other upon the creation of money ( principal only ) , which also consists of the earned profit which is a greater value upon further of our labour & production we give up & receive from each other, likewise if I logically produce more than someone else my just entitlement  is more than someone else , now for Mr. Griffin to merely assume without qualification that no one’s work should be more highly valued than anyone else  in MPE is absolutely absurd  , The greater value theretofore is increased earned profit per New Representation of Property (NRP) we give up & receive from each other, issuing new circulation always equal to the debt & likewise retiring the remaining principal value equal to the remaining property value at the rate of the consumption or depreciation that WE THE PEOPLE CHOOSE not by any politician, or any government bureaucrat , & most certainly not by any thieving bank . There will be no  banks or government representatives intervening on our business & commerce stealing from us in the process that you Mr. Griffin clearly advocate.

EXAMPLE : If I built a brand new house from the ground up at a cost of $70,000 in a Mathematically Perfected Economy™ with an estimated lifespan of 100 years ( which is no different to what current insurance companies do today estimating the price of anything really, only exception  is when we actually look at  MPEs  obligatory schedule of payment  we clearly see all property we consume  even a house depreciates at a rate  we consume it much like everything else we consume just like today ) & I then decide to sell that brand new house  for $100,000 consequently then that $30,000 excess on top of my cost  is my * Earned Profit * which is * GREATER VALUE *  that is most certainly NOT INTEREST but * Earned Profit * as a result where I gave up my labour /work  & time to produce that house & what some one pays me for that house ( principal only ) by issuing a $100,000 promissory obligation ( money creation ) thus issuing $100,000 UNEXPLOITED DOLLARS  into circulation upon the sale indirectly or directly is always an EQUAL representation of wealth we give up to each other, not that we give up to any publisher of money OR thieving  bank who merely pretends to loan us money risking nothing of their own . Now on the other hand If I live in that house & neglect that house over a 20 year period of consumption then deciding to sell that house a respective buyer can then negotiate a price with me,  if that buyer  is smart they will see the neglect & offer me $70.000 instead of $80,000 & if I agree the house is refinanced by the CMI at $70,000 . Another likely scenario therefore if I add a NEW room on that house after 20 years of consumption  I may negotiate a value of $90,000 with a respective buyer & if the buyer agrees the house is refinanced by the CMI at $90,000 likewise if I add a second floor to my house I can even negotiate a value of $180,000 that’s indeed above any prior value, where its clearly  ALWAYS WE THE PEOPLE WHO DECIDE THE VALUE OR THE RATE OF DEPRECIATION  OR   CONSUMPTION  from the ground floor up when we produce anything  in MPE really in what  will  be a TRUE free enterprise market free of exploitation , Please let me be clear once again folks the obligatory schedule is a mathematical formula that proves it  commits no crimes against us nothing more, where in fact the obligatory schedule, if one cares to even look at it  proves to us all with logic & elementary 2nd grade math alone  No one decides the value of property or our * labour & production * except WE THE PEOPLE  because its we the people who takes all the risk & creates all wealth from the ground floor up , NOT the CMI , NOT any bureaucrat or government regulation & most certainly NOT any thieving bank.

Looking closer at Mr. Griffins purported quotation of Mike Montagne above :

Alleged Quote

” , but to the very economic justice of receiving for an equal measure of our own * work  *, the equivalent work of others.”

End of alleged quote

We see this is a purposed misquote folks, rather the correct quote is:

Correct Quote:

we pay for each others* production * with an equal measure of our own.” 

End of correct quote

Logically then what we produce with our labour or work is our * PRODUCTION * folks .I ASK YOU TO  PLEASE THINK NOW ?, what is equal is the money itself  in * VOLUME * that represents the * property value * , property value then is what we * produce/ production  * likewise this is equal to any remaining debt ( see MPEs 1.1.1 ratio ) NOT equal to our work or labour as such that we also gave up in the production of  property ,simply  because our * labour & production *  is always different to another  unless of course someone else produces something exactly the same  in the exact same time which is highly unlikely, Actually MPEs  Mathematics evidences or formula fully accounts for a fact our perpetual motion or our labour & production in any given time is indeed always different to another in that same space of given time.

Its quite clear now Mr.Griffin is misleading people by purposefully misquoting Mike Montagne , then illogically writing without any proof nor any qualification, merely assuming then, that  individuals in a mathematically perfected Economy™ will be  denied of just reward for their own differentiating production rates, which is absolutely absurd  really because what we give up to each other  is not only our * labour * but  as a result our *  production *, which   is   the  remaining  property  value  ( RV )   ,that’s equal to the remaining volume of money circulating ( C )    likewise equal to any remaining  debt  ( RO ),  where circulation   ( principal only ) is rightfully retired at the rate of our consumption  (CRP) WE THE PEOPLE CHOOSE ( not anyone else )  in what would & can be a true free market . If you produce more than your neighbor your consequently paid more for that further production you produce, or paid more for  the  New  Represented  Property    ( NRP)  you  produce  that   issues  more   new   money   ( principal only )   into circulation,  GOT IT NOW GRIFFIN, or do you need to repeat 2nd grade mathematics ?  , furthermore to claim that there is or ever was a free market is to deny the banks first crime by purposefully obfuscating our promissory obligations?, seriously folks, how can Mr.Griffin purport some  knowledge  in what a free market decides when he has never ever seen one, & has no clue what money represents or how money is even created or even retired for that matter ? A free market  has never truly existed in recorded history of this planet, not while the banks continue intervening on our contracts with each other by purposefully obfuscating our promissory obligations we have to each other before the book / ledger entry, or before any  publication of any money or credit folks .?

Mr.Griffin : None of this is a new concept. Karl Marx came up with it first. The Mathematically Perfected Economy is just another name for collectivism.

REPLY : This last one coming from Mr.Griffin is preposterous , ludicrous & absurd folks ,  because MPE couldn’t be any further from  collectivism & only shows us all Mr. Griffin is attempting to preserve the LIE of economy consequently then attempting  to preserve  the banks crimes against us by what it clearly  appears now to be purposely pointing people away from MPE with his unqualified assumptions & out right LIES ?. One cant brand MPE with any preexisting name or ” ism ” because MPE simply can’t be compared to anything we have seen in history in any nation, to do so as Mr. Griffin has clearly done here, evident in his own words,  only demonstrates ones very own willful blind ignorance.

The way I describe MPE is to say it’s a true free enterprise market * free of exploitation * , sovereign to any nations people  who decides to adopt it.

I formally then challenge YOU  ” G .Edward Griffin “  to debate on TNS radio.  Anything else is clear evasion of evidential fact.

comment full 2

2 thoughts on “Refuting G.Edward Griffin’s Critique of Mathematically Perfected Economy”

  1. The problem with Mr Griffin is that he is not taking into account the whole reason why ‘usury’ is forbidden in all religions. All religions clearly state as their number #1 principle, treat others as you would have them treat you and usury prevents one being able to perform this duty…what this means is that when someone borrows at interest the borrower becomes the servant of the lender, and therefore cannot serve his God at the point where the ‘labour being used to earn the interest’ is being spent on serving the lender….there are many reasons why someone may need to borrow short term in order to survive, such as an act of weather etc, but in these cases the lender is forbidden to charge the borrower interest, in fact, the lender is told by all religions to give, not lend, in other words help out and do not put on any conditions (in other words dont ask for anything back)…but if the borrower borrows for emotional wants, such as a new home, car, holiday etc, which they want to ‘own’, then they are basically saying that my ‘want’ is more important than serving others (which is what the religions are trying to teach everyone..put others before yourself, and then you are serving God)…Usury is God’s way of spanking someone and making them realize that when they must pay back the interest they are now serving a different master, and you can never serve two masters….I have read and studied a lot of Griffins materials and he is of the principle that competition and capitalism is the only way and that the only property in existence is essentially capital and means of production…I disagree with this and believe that our Duties are our most precious gifts and are rights, and therefore property, in and of themselves…and that ‘interest’, which is just a modern word for usury, prevents us from being able to perform our duties

    • Indeed , however ever since the conception of banking there never has been any loans or borrowing & this is essentially where Griffin goes terribly wrong, as well as having no clue what money is or what it truly represents, now if all this is intentional on Griffins behalf & I’m quite sure it is , he is the very thing he pretends to oppose , that being a socialistic wolf dressed up in sheep’s clothing ,& make no mistake MPE is not socialism or capitalism , for capitalism likewise socialism is taking unearned gain at another’s expense , its banking exploitation which griffin is attempting to preserve regardless, making him no better than bankers & political betrayers who impose these crimes against us , actually advocating a public central bank who commits the same crimes against us is nothing short of the sort & type of communism found in china today .

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